I guess it depends on how old the guys you play with are. When I play with my dad I let him choose which tees he wants to play from. We were playing with a couple guys that were scratch golfers and they said one you turn 60 you can play from the whites. Obviously everyone has there own opinion on this though. If you cant reach a couple of the greens in regulation I would at least move up on those holes. I know you are supposed to stick to the same tees the whole round, but if you aren't playing in a tournament I don't think it should matter. My dad usually plays from the white tees on a couple holes if it is either a long par 5 or there is a landing that is over 200 yards from the black tees that you have to hit to in order to reach the green in regulation. If you're going to have more fun from the 6000 yard tees, just do it.

I personally would have no problem with you moving up, even if it were just on the 2 holes you have problems with. We "play" golf to have fun and be with our friends. It is not "work" and I would bet it would not make any difference in the outcome of your matches.

Move up and have fun!

First, that is what handicaps are made for, it levels out the playing field.  If your handicap is correct and the individuals you play with have the correct handicap, the fact that you can't reach two holes is reflected in your handicap.   If you were to play from the up tees remember it will be reflected in your handicap and before long you will be a 5 and be giving everyone you play strokes.

This game was not designed to be easy, it was designed to be difficult and rewarding.  I really don't understand your concern because you can't reach two holes.  That's what pitching and chipping is for.

I'm sorry but I'm 69yrs. young and love playing from the regular and challenge tees with the younger guys.  Challenge your golfing skills and you will be surprised at how good you really are.

CARL, NEXT YEAR IT WILL BE A LITTLE HARDER AND IN 3-5 YEARS YOUR DRIVES WILL BE 185 AND YOUR 7 WILL BE 110.

I AM GOING ON 73 AND OUR GROUP AVG AGE IS 70+. WE ALL PLAY THE 6200-6500 TEES (WE HAVE 4 COURSES).

IN MY CASE I RARELY CAN REACH A PAR 4 IN 2 BUT STILL GET A FEW PARS ON THOSE HOLES EACH ROUND.

WE HAVE ONE COURSE 300+ YARDS LONGER THAN THE OTHERS AND WE HAVE ON WET OR WINDY DAYS PLAYED FROM THE LADIES TEES ON PAR FOURS JUST TO SPEED UP PLAY.OUR HANDICAPS RANGE FROM 6 TO 14 USING THE 63-6300 YG COURSE.

OUR GROUP JUST DISCUSSES THE CONDITIONS EACH DAY ON WHAT COURSE AND DECIDE WHICH TEES TO USE.

IT'S THE GAME AND THE COMARADARIE THAT COUNTS,,,NOT THE SCORE.

Carl

The different tees are there for a reason.

Everyone keeps reminding you of the handie cap system. This is a very true and accuret statement if everyone is playing there handie cap is should be a fair game. Now then if your playing a verient of  skins i can see where the complaint is. I wouldnt complaine but im 29 and drive it 300 yards and hit a 3w off the deck 260. I dont feel a love loss if your playing from tees more fitting to your game. But just rmeember your handicap changes based on what tee's your playing from. Im a 7 from the blacks but im a 2 from the whites. its almost a 1000 yard diffrence. If there complaining its an unfair advantge is it becouse they probably should be moving up a tee box also and just dont want to. and if your having a regular group try spicing it up. rotate boxes between outings. move to the reds also mand it really makes the game intresting. or try a rotateing boxs threw out the round. yea you cant use that round for your handie cap but it will make things fun.

Play the game from the tees where YOU feel comfortable and want to play.  The handicaps are intended to "even" the playing field.  You can still play your matches from the up tees.  If your friends object, invite them to move up too!

From the "sound" of your note, you do not want to play from the 6500 anymore.  So don't.  Tell your group that you are playing up and that is just how it is.  You are paying the same fees as they are, so enjoy it!

I would have to believe that moving up is just up to you. The fact that you can't reach several holes in the required number of strokes is something that happens as we lose that power as we ageand is something you have to adjust to. The  fact that your friends might have a negtive reaction to your moving up should not be a factor. Those that you move up to would not say you have an advantage as your handicap should change with the move. And if you decide to stay, I'm of the impression that your handicap should be greater than you are currently using. I speak fro some expperience as I too am  one of those seniors and losing some of that power I had, but those I golf with are also getting up there in years and are slowly changing. This game is about having fun and at our ages we need to just relax and enjoy the game. If those you currently golf with are friends and really play for enjoyment, they should welcome your decision without criticism. None of us know how much longer we will be able to continue to play this great game we call golf and I, for one, intend to play this game and have as much fun as the Good Lord will allow me to have.

Thanks for the input guys. One thing I'm going to do this year for sure is to improve my short game, pitching, chipping and putting. These are critical for those long 400 yard plus par 4's that I can't reach in regulation. Also I have started increasing my work outs at the gym. May not help me regain the distance I lost but will help delay losing anymore..........I hope.

Carl

The gym workouts will definately help.  Work on flexibility.  Always stretch between exercises.  Visit TPI online for some great ideas for all ages.

Good Luck

Deno

I say play from where you are happy.  This game is for our enjoyment. 

 My dad(65) plays the same tee boxes I do and is a 5 handicap  to my 4.  I am at least 3 clubs longer than he is with all clubs.  He is one of the best wedge players and putters I have ever met.  Age is just a number in my opinion.  He is retired and has all the time in the world to work on his game.  

Enjoy our time while we can, there are worse things than someone being upset about playing the upper tees.

Tim

I played TPC sawgrass this past Summer. Our caddie asked us which tees we would like to play and presented several options, but suggested that we mix our tee boxes based on our handicaps. Our group had similar handicaps so we chose to mix our tee boxes according to his knowledge of how the course played. I enjoyed it, but some holes played too short for me fom the tee...It's golf, its for fun! I didn't moan about it. Golf isn't about what tee box you play its about enjoying the game.

And yes, 17 at sawgrass is truly a great hole!! (no matter the teebox)

This is a VERY long article but well worth the read on this very subject.  Take the time, like I said its worth it!

A Formula for the Renaissance of Golf

By: Barney Adams

A rather arrogant title methinks. Let’s start with the question, does golf need a renaissance and to accurately answer I looked up the word. While rebirth is given as a synonym the broader meaning is a cultural change from history going forward. When I accessed data from The National Golf Foundation and the US Census, it struck me that golf, as played regularly by amateurs, needs a renaissance…badly.

Numbers can be pretty boring so here’s the macro analysis. (The census data and National Golf Foundation reports are available for those interested in the details.) We have approximately the same number of golfers playing today as we did in 1990. Since then over 3800 courses have been built in the US and our population has increased over 25%. Moreover, the demographics of our population’s increase in age and income fit the profile of potential golfers. Something has happened over the last 20 years that has resulted in less people taking up and enjoying the game.

Distilling commentary on the Internet we learn that golf has become too time- demanding, too expensive, and too frustrating. I agree with the first comment on time but consider the argument on expense. Paying money  to be aggravated  and  frustrated is not exactly logical, change that to enjoyable  and rewarding and the expense argument weakens considerably.

Taking those specific complaints what follows will speed up play, make the game more fun and do so at no cost to the golfer or the industry. I’m not writing this just as a story. This is about changing the game of amateur golf, taking on its culture, tradition and negative reaction from the players themselves. To say it’s a formidable task is almost funny. My approach is to produce hard data, draw the conclusions, and try to get support at all levels, from players to the organizations that influence the game.

Sometimes you have to experience something in a different environment to get a clear understanding. For transparency, I’m a 9 handicap 71 year old having played the game for over 50 years. I also worked in the equipment side of the golf industry and possess a deep love for the game.  Some months ago I was invited to play with guys I didn’t know on a course I’d never played before. The group was easily in my age bracket and most had higher handicaps. The course wasn’t long we were going to play from the back tees, short of 6700 yds. Since my regular course was longer, the players better, my ego was on full throttle. I was prepared to star; I’d  show these guys what I had once been, a player( at least my memory convinced me thus.)

At the end of the round (an uninspiring 83) I reflected. My first reaction was: with a 9 handicap an 83 is within normal limits. Yet as I thought more, this conclusion was a trap, one that I have somehow accepted over the years. It was an immediate reaction: 83…9 handicap…ok. But what about a couple of other things? Did I really have fun or was I managing frustration? Did the time go by quickly and with pleasure or was it a struggle? As I contemplated these and other ideas the entire round began to take on a different perspective. It was like I had played two different courses, one eliciting a “hey not so bad, you need to work on your game a little” response and the other, a vague mystery about overall length and my game.

There were at least 4 holes where most of the group could not reach the green in regulation, but because of my incredible length I only fell short on 3. Further I still hit (or more correctly tried to hit) hybrids and the occasional fairway wood into greens designed to receive shorter irons. The playing conditions were excellent, and in honest reflection, the results were well within my norm considering that on average I play yardages from 6600 to 6900.

I have to pause here because among my friends, virtually every male to whom I relate this story,  (not senior golfers, amateurs of all ages) the mere suggestion of a 6700 yard course being too long is treated with scorn and derision. The basic response is, maybe for you (you wimp) but not me. 

Was I any different in my reaction and the answer is certainly not. I had to be missing something. Maybe my golf balls had gone bad, maybe there was more wind than I realized, maybe I had the flu or worse the beginning of some horrible muscle deterioration caused by my advanced age.  None of these were apparent and after a trip to my doctor, who looked at me quizzically as he found nothing wrong, I reverted to an old habit: analyzing numbers.

I don’t quite remember why, maybe watching an event on TV, but I started with the distance Tour players hit their tee shots. Officially it’s 287 (but that includes positioning holes) so a 300 yard drive is normal and the big hitters easily exceed that number. I then went on the Internet and found several articles on the distance male amateurs hit their tee shots. They ranged from averages of 205 to 230, and to be clear, this does not include the college players or scratch amateurs. I’m talking about the great majority of players who support the game: you, me, us. 

I used 230 because, well, you know, I must be hitting it that far!

Even then the difference is 70 yards compared to the tour professional 300. On irons they hit 20 yards farther and here again I’m giving us the benefit of a very big doubt. It’s closer on our strong lofted wedges, but when they launch a 5-iron 220 yards over water its game over.

So using my ego inflated numbers I get 70 yds on the drive and 20 yds on irons for a total of 90. Take a par 72 course with 10 par 4 holes and the difference is 900 yards. Add in the same formula for the par 3 and par 5 holes and the total easily reaches 1400 yards. (Let me emphasize, easily)  EUREKA! The reason why my little 6700 yard course was so long is because it was like a tour professional playing an 8100 yard course. And there you have it, something a Tour Professional with their great skills would never, do we ignore and frustrate ourselves on a regular basis.

If you stop and think about the “why” it’s grist for the mill of the analyst. We do not now, nor will we ever, hit the ball as solidly as a tour player, control the distance, possess the shot making skills they do, and yet we continually spot them in the area where they have the greatest advantage, length. It’s like scrimmaging against  an NBA player except that our basket is 12’, or batting against a major league pitcher and letting him throw fast balls from 45’, or serving a tennis ball from 20’ behind the baseline.  You could have a field day listing comparable pursuits.

To further test my theory I got a young tour aspirant to play with me one Friday late, when the front nine was empty. All he had to do was accept my  leveling of   the playing field and tee off 90 yards behind me, which meant from an adjoining fairway in some cases. I didn’t move up I played the “mens” tees that in this case produced a 6800 yard course.  After a few 280 yard shots into par 4 holes I asked him if he’d play that distance on a regular basis. The look I got was accompanied by “Are you kidding me?” and he decided he needed to go and practice.

What prevents us from playing the 6000-6400 yard courses (which is what the Tour plays weekly given their superior distance)? And by the way, the same data analysis produces yardages of 4000-4600 for women, a discussion I’ll have later.  What is it that makes the male ego respond, that chest swelling, “no way, not me, I’m not playing those front tees.”

I’ve tested the theory with several of my golfing friends and can come to only one conclusion; it’s the misconception and our ego reaction to the front tees when it should really be only about Tour Length. 

It’s also incorrectly looked at as a senior movement, us “old guys” move up. The 230 yard average did not come with any age classification, it is universal to the core who support the game.

Let’s say your course has a neat little par 4 of 345 yards, a couple of par 3’s 160 or less, and moving to the front tees ruins what are very nice designs.  Leave those holes as is. This is a critical point because moving to the very front tees would turn them into weak, uninteresting golf holes.

How about a par 4 at 445 Yards and a par 5 at 440? Crazy stuff you say? Not necessarily. The par 4 has a fairly wide slightly down second shot to a large green. Your 230 yard drive leaves 215, and given your Sunday best, you can get to it (or at least close enough to have a chance at par). There’s no restriction against having a long hard hole, just like the Tour.

The 440 yard par 5, with the same 230 yard tee shot, leaves 200, carry 210, to the flag. This hole has water in front, trouble on all sides, a classic risk/reward situation. Now 200 all carry, over water, for our group… well, the challenge is very interesting! OK, 98% of the time we should lay up but again, the ego response: only 200 yards, why?  It’s a tight target, surrounded by trouble. The shot that works is high, landing softly, and the person hitting it isn’t concerned about the distance, he’s thinking about the correct trajectory.

This is where the PGA of America comes in. I’m encouraging (badgering) them to make this their legacy. Use their considerable golf skills to set courses up with a set of Tour Length tees and during the process, educate members, explaining the reasoning and the benefits. At the same time I’d love to see amateur golfers understand and ask for the change. Use the 230 yard drive as a base, give us second shots from 160 on down, some 5 pars reachable in two; nothing Tour players don’t experience in every event.

Golf magazines, Internet sites are flush with articles on how to get core golfers playing more and new people into the game.  Yes, come on lets all play continually from the equivalent of 7500 to 8300 yards, take an inordinate amount of time and be hellishly frustrated. It’s a credit to the great game that more people haven’t quit.    Tour length would give us faster rounds, more fun (if you consider the occasional birdie putt more fun). Those two things alone and we don’t need more benefits.  

Once started this will spawn ideas well beyond anything I can imagine. One club pro suggested a season long Tour Length event at his club to get his members used to playing the new tees. How about PGA section recognition to the best Tour length layouts, show them in the PGA magazine.

I mentioned women’s Tour Length at 4200-4400. I used the same formula comparing average women golfers to LPGA players. This has more ramifications than you might think. For years I’ve read that the influx of women golfers will increase rounds played. Hasn’t happened, net zero to minus. The National Golf Foundation calls it churning; the same number that start playing is equaled by the ones that quit.  Maybe, just maybe, putting them on Tour Length courses will allow them to enjoy golf, play faster and stick with the game.

Since I’m the advocate of Tour Length I have tried to come up with reasons why it might be a bad idea, find significant flaws. One is handicapping. It could affect the way the USGA or other systems handicap courses. Given the dramatic benefits from faster play and players having more fun, I cannot envision any organization that promotes golf not embracing the concept and making necessary changes.

One of my friends made me stop and think.  A Scotsman, he brought up two significant issues, one factual, one philosophical. The first was that here in the US we overwater our courses. He said we have a fixation on lovely green fairways which translates to soft and minimum roll. The second was our obsession with par. He said if we took the European attitude and just made numbers, the frustration issue would be mitigated.

I agree on the first thought, it’s a basis for another story. I am a great fan of firmer, faster courses; and healthy fairways, light green to a little brown, are fine with me. If the result is increased driving distance from my suggested “Tour Length Layout” with less maintenance cost, that’s wonderful. As to ignoring par and just making numbers, I said he missed my point. Just give me the same relative distances as the greatest players and we can play any system that works.  

I don’t advocate turning the 6700 or the 7000 yard  tees into flower boxes. The strong amateur players need their challenges.  One of my favorite stories involves a guy from the Northeast who spent winters in Florida. Once a year in February he flew back, went outside, experienced the cold and took the next flight back. My gang and I can treat the 6700 yard tees with equal reverence.

Some golf writers have written about playing shorter tees and the response has been essentially nil. This isn’t about shorter tees it’s about a Tour Length Layout. I realize I’m repeating here but I’ve explained this many times on a one-on-one basis.  The universal reaction starts negative, but when I go through the logic, and ask “why not, what is wrong with the analysis” the negative reactions turn positive.   

I sincerely hope the PGA of America, aided by all the concerned bodies, use their considerable influence to install Tour Length as a renaissance in golf. It needs it, we need it.

Nick

Back when I came to the course I'm playing now(my old course closed), There was nobody that played the front, there were many that should.

I picked up with 3 guys, all played the middle tees, none should play the middle tees.

First my driver went, then all my woods. Then 1 day I said I think I'll have more fun playing the front, they all laughed.

Hole 1 I hit 4 iron to 100y, pw, 1 putt birdie. After their drives they were about 180, missing the green, bogeys and worse.

Hole 2 they hit from the middle, 1 in the woods, 2 200+y, I hit my 2 iron to the 150, the guy in the woods decided he was going to play the front and hit again, he was about 160y, the other 2 quickly decided they were going to play the front and hit again. The rounds started going much smoother.

Others started seeing us playing the front and they would catch me playing alone and join me so they could play the front. Then more and more were looking for any of us to play with. Soon there were other groups playing the front.

I think they all really wanted to play the front, it was just nobody wanted to be the first.

Its not some organization the will bring people to the correct tees, it is somebody that will step up and be the first, especially if that someone is someone that doesn't need to move up.

Carl, this is Vincent a again.  I like what you said about exercising more and increasing your strength.  I 'm a firm believer in exercising and flexibility.  I have been doing it for 69 years.  You will find that as your strength increases, your flexibility will improve and in direct correlation your ability to turn on your back swing and follow through will increase, therefore you will be coming thru the ball better and hitting the ball longer.

Look at Mr. Player, everyone said he was crazy to exercise, lift weights. Now every player on tour visits the gym and perform some form of physical exercise.

It really doesn't matter what you do, just as long as you are doing it and on a regular bases.  I find swinging a very heavy golf club, simulating an actual golf swing helps keep me loose.

Spring is almost here, can't wait. 

I say play the tees where you have fun and enjoy the game.  Frustration on the golf course is way overrated.

Mooooove up. Have fun reaching greens in regulation to what you play. Golf is dying because people don't have the nads to go out and just enjoy the game. I hit the ball long but play with men in their 40s and 50s and play from the whites  they know how far they hit it. They don't have time to practice or the money. the best part is my long game does not help that much as I get beat up by the short game. Go enjoy!